What a night at the Schnitz! It was a full house, and a slightly raucous one. Howard Dean and Richard Perle held a polite yet rigorous debate tonight. The audience was also fairly polite 90% of the time, only because one of the moderators insisted that the crowd let Perle speak. I have to admit there were a few times I was tempted to join in with the yells and jeers at Perle, but I was trying to take notes for this blog. Although at one point I just couldn't help myself and neither could a majority of the audience.
First I'll start with a summary. Dean was on the new Democratic Party message and he stayed on the message though out the entire debate. In a nutshell the message was: Defense and security are more than just military might. You have to not only have a strong military (he made this point over and over) but you also have to take a comprehensive view that includes fiscal, energy, environmental, and trade policies. At one point he said, "Defense is a lot broader than just going around saying that you're gonna kick Saddam's butt." Yeeaaahhh! He said we don't have a strong defense policy when we're running up huge deficits borrowing money from the Chinese and Japanese. We don't have a strong defense policy when we're dependent on Saudi Arabia for our energy needs. Right on! (Lot's o' cheers here.)
Perle, in a nutshell, continued to insist that invading Iraq was the right thing even though there were no weapons of mass destruction. He claimed that not going in would have been like not buying insurance on your house because you didn't think your house would burn down (a very bad analogy that earned Perle lots of jeers and boos.) He said that one day people will look back at the US invasion of Iraq as the turning point in history where freedom began to spread to the rest of the oppressed regions of the world. He insisted that US style democracy in Iraq is the seed to freedom and security for all. That would be great, but with these idiots in charge, I doubt it.
At one point someone in the audience threw a shoe at Perle and started screaming, "You *ucking liar, you *ucking liar" over and over. Security dragged the person out, but other people started yelling in the audience. You could still hear the person screaming down the corridor as he was being taken out of the building. Then a second person started yelling the same thing over and over. There was quite a bit of yelling, and Perle couldn't be heard until one of the moderators put her foot down and basically, in a nice way, told everyone to shut up.
Perle also focused on 9/11 and 9/11 and 9/11. He claimed that prior to 9/11 that no one was arguing that we needed to do more to fight terrorism. I guess he never bumped into Richard Clarke before 9/11.
Once they were done with their intros, the three moderators asked questions. The first question to Dean was about what did the '04 elections mean. His response was that the GOP won, not because they are stronger on defense, but because they were better at framing themselves as being stronger and the Dems as being weaker. Framing, nice answer!
Perle was asked about a statement he made in September of 2003 where he said that by September of 2004 there would be a grand square in Bagdad named after Bush and that Iraqis would be celebrating their freedom. Perle still believes there will be a grand square in Bagdad named after Bush. It may just take a little longer than he had expected. What? Will it have a statue of Bush too?
Another question to Dean was about how do we mend our relations and reestablish our moral authority in a changing world where China and the EU are becoming more powerful. Dean said that the decisions the Bush admin is making today lack vision and do not take into account how these decisions will effect us over the next 15 years. He believes we need to have better trade agreements that help promote freedom. Again he went back to the defense issue and stated that national defense is also about spreading our ideas. I think in this case he meant our ideas about ethics, fairness and liberty. Not the ideas about torture, war and economic oppression.
The next question to Perle was about "soft power" and whether or not he supported the concept of soft power which is about using your earned good will and respect to build alliances that can help you assert power over countries that may be a threat. Perle said he does not subscribe to the notion of soft power because "...refraining from tough acts of self defense is too high a price to pay just for respect around the world." It's only black and white for the neocons, at least in their rhetoric, because they're certainly not invading North Korea.
Dean and Perle then went back and forth for a while. Perle constantly accused the Dems of being weak on defense and proof of it is in their voting records on defense spending. This is where Dean came out kicking like a real donkey. He told Perle that you can't just measure defense by how much money you give to the Pentagon. And he said "We all know about the $600 toilet seats at the Pentagon." Yeeaaaaaaaaaah!
Perle asked Dean whether or not the Democrats would ever start thinking seriously about national security so that it would no longer be a political issue. Again Dean came out kicken'. He said that Bush is the one who has politicized the issue of national security. He went on to say that Bush should have genuinely consulted with people rather than simply having them as window dressings in meetings. Perle responded by saying that Bush consulted with Powell. Sorry, but he doesn't count in your book, Mr. Perle. Dean kicked back and said, "And he was treated like a Democrat."
Perle closed with 9/11 and 9/11 and 9/11. Very creative.
Dean closed with the vision of Kennedy's Peace Corps. He said that we have to show the world that we have something better to offer than what the terrorists offer. Just like we did with communism.
There's more, but I'm tired. It was a great evening, and Dean will make the Democrats proud.
Update (2/19/05) - Some final thoughts here.
Sounds rather like Dean again proved himself to be either a moron or a poor nuancer/sophist.
Defense and security are "more than" military might? Duh.
Dems only appear to be weak on National Defense? Oh, sure.
Running up huge deficits? Yes, by gov't spending, not "by borrowing".
Bad to borrow from the Chinese and Japanese? Say what? Their money is no good?
Richard Clarke? Are you kidding?
And on and no, why bother?
You are not going to be convinced by me, I know. And I know why, but won't insult you by saying, except to insult you by implying I would be insulting and because the analysis would be correct. Now that's more like good nuance, what I just said. Dean is vacuous. His nuance is nonsense. Mine was only vicious. And I apologize!
Posted by: J. Peden | February 18, 2005 at 07:14 AM
Yeah, and things are going really great in Iraq, aren't they? And we're so loved by the rest of the world, so much that everyone is jumping in to help us in Iraq. Countries around the world can't wait to contribute their militaries to the effort because they see how thinly stretched the US military is now. They see how we're being forced to extend the tours of duties of our soldiers to two years instead of one, so they're jumpin' right in to help, aren't they?
Posted by: Sid | February 18, 2005 at 10:22 AM
Dean? Who cares. The election is over so, please, someone shut the pathetic whining up. Although, I do find it interesting that Dean is now the poster boy of everything moronic about the extreme left, which is a true mental disorder.
Posted by: ks | February 18, 2005 at 03:41 PM
>> The audience was also fairly polite 90% of the time, only because one of the moderators insisted that the crowd let Perle speak. I have to admit there were a few times I was tempted to join in with the yells and jeers at Perle, but I was trying to take notes for this blog. Although at one point I just couldn't help myself and neither could a majority of the audience.
The hallmark of sore losers and immature observers.
Posted by: Jordan | February 18, 2005 at 06:23 PM
Yeah, Jordan, the sore losers and immature observers in Washington who cannot accept that Dino should shut his fetid maw and crawl back into the hole he came from.
Posted by: Neo | February 18, 2005 at 09:11 PM
J.Pedophile, nuance would be HitlerBush sucking Gannon-cheney. Too bad that orgy had to end.
Posted by: Neo | February 18, 2005 at 09:13 PM
I was looking for a transcript or a reasonable analysis of the debate. But considering the tenor of the comments and sneering prejudice of this sites author that wont be found here.
Need to point out that it was Regan that showed the world something better than communism. He also stood up to it militarily.
Of course Bush politicized national security. It splits the democrats as a party. Half of the dems like the US and view it as a bastion of liberty and freedom. The other half are snarling leftists that throw shoes at people they disagree with and hate this country. Given the obvious sympathies in this post I can guess where you guys are.
Lastly about Powell and the democrats and how they have been treated, how was Powell mistreated? How have the democrats been mistreated? It seems to me that you are all just pissed that most of us disagree with you. You talk approvingly of a person that threw a shoe at Perle. What a crock of s***.
Posted by: Collin | February 18, 2005 at 09:54 PM
Why didn't Dean want the press to cover or quote his statements at first?
And that line about Dean thinking that Republicans won because the Democrats didn't come across as being strong on defense, what about being strong on issues? ..."I voted for before I voted against..." lol. What about screaming mad men? lol. And what about being caught in that lie about being in Cambodia and his Paris meeting? What about not offering real objectives other than just Republicans are evil.
In '04 Kerry painted the Democrate Party in colors that 'flip floped'. In '05 Dean now changes the picture to 'misdirect' America in a attempt to make us think that the Democrate Party really is strong on defense and security. ...And it seems to be working on a few.
Posted by: Ron | February 18, 2005 at 10:15 PM
Who spoke approvingly of the person throwing his shoe at Perle? Read my post again. There is nothing about the incident that I write that is either approving or disapproving. I simply wrote that some guy threw his shoe at Perle and started screaming *ucking liar over and over. I did write negatively about Perle and positively about Dean, but shoe thrower? C'mon!
One thing I find about conservatives who troll around on liberal sites is that they get so darn mad about what we post. You guys have the House, the Senate, the White House and the Judiciary and you're still steamin' mad, even at some little blogger like myself.
Geez, if the liberals controlled all the branches of govt. we'd be jumpin' with joy.
Posted by: Sid | February 18, 2005 at 10:40 PM
Perhaps the writer missed the mayor of Baghdad saying after the election that he wants to erect a statue of George Bush. This from a brave man whose predecessor was murdered by terrorists.
Posted by: JANE | February 19, 2005 at 06:57 AM
Jane,
The writer, yours truly, also understands that the US is still the occupying power. If a statue of Bush goes up now, chances are it will be blown up, and I don't think the Bush administration wants that on the front pages of newspapers.
I think the Bushies are perfectly happy with their bill boards of Bush smiling with a tag line that reads "YOUR LEADER" in Florida.
Posted by: Sid | February 19, 2005 at 11:10 AM
From what I heard from other sources Dean moppped the floor with Perle. When the video comes out on C-span I suspect that pro-Bush people will wish that Dean had gone ahead with the media black out.
One thing a couple of posters seem to not realise from Deans comments; China and Japan own American debt in the form of treasury bonds. Chinese curency is pegged to our dollar. If the Chinese wanted to seriously screw the US economy they would only have to do is dump their US bonds and un-peg their currency. The US economy will go into a 1920's style depression. What is sad is that as Bush antagonizes the world other developed countries are developing in such a way so the if the US go down it goes down alone and this time would not be able to dig out it. Remember all our factories are Chinese and Mexican i.e. off shore production. And as the size of the Chinese economy supasses the US in the next few years no one otside of the US will care either. I think this is what Dean was talking about when he said national security is more than the millitary.
Posted by: tmp | February 19, 2005 at 01:29 PM
tmp-
Good points. Other economies are starting to tag their currencies to the Euro. Although India's rupee is not been tagged to a particular currency in the past, they are starting to use the Euro as their guide post. I know this because I get stuff from India for my business and the cost has gone up dramatically.
The only security we have with China is tha since they are so heavily invested in US treasury bonds, they need the dollar to stay afloat so their bonds won't be worthless. But as more economies peg their currencies to the Euro, China might start feeling the pressure. Who knows. One thing for sure, the neocons don't like the concept of the EU at all. I just put up a post with a link in it to the whole "old europe" thing and how competitive they are becoming in the world's economy. The post is directly in front of this one.
The neocons used the Iraq war to try to drive a wedge through Europe and the whole EU concept. It backfired on them.
Posted by: Sid | February 19, 2005 at 02:09 PM
Wow, Sid, you've attracted quite a collection of trolls!
Thanks for posting about the event as I wasn't able to attend.
Posted by: Jenny Greenleaf | February 19, 2005 at 02:09 PM
I know! What's up with that? I must get under their skin.
Thanks for all your hard work!
I just posted some final thoughts on the debate in a new post.
Posted by: Sid | February 19, 2005 at 02:13 PM
Debating 101: How NOT to Refute an Argument
> Defense and security are "more than" military might?
> Duh.
> Dems only appear to be weak on National Defense? Oh,
> sure.
But I suppose if you're attempting to defend the indefensible, you don't have many other arrows in your quiver.
Posted by: dB | February 19, 2005 at 03:11 PM
Thank you, Sid. But I think we're wasting out collective breath. Those who will not see, cannot. When the repercussions start to affect them personally, then they'll be the loudest in complaining.
Posted by: Taro | February 19, 2005 at 05:18 PM
Taro,
I know sometimes it feels like we're wasting our collective breath, but I think it's important that we keep discussing it. It enables us to refine our arguments so that when we're talking to someone who may not know as much, we can convince them with our frames. That's why Dean said in the debate, whoever frames the argument first, wins. Until now, Republicans have dominated in framing, and we've been using their frames. It's time to use our own, and these are the places to build them up.
Posted by: Sid | February 19, 2005 at 11:28 PM
What I loved about Dean's speech was his revisionist history about how the Soviet Union was stopped.
Contrary to Dean's portrayal, the Europeans did NOT love us back then. They thought we were warmongers...merely the other-side of the coin of the Soviets. The politically Liberal Americans, just as Dean is positioning himself now, were ardent critics of the US's "aggressive approach" toward the USSR; staging "die-ins" and such in protest. The average Soviet like American blue jeans but was as convinced of KGB propaganda as the average Arab in the ME is convinced that the US is a ediface of Christian Imperialism.
Posted by: CMAR II | February 21, 2005 at 06:22 AM
The combined EU economy is bigger than ours. We no longer produce goods. Instead we are consumers of stuff not made here. China, Japan, EU all out-produce us. We are no longer a superpower economically. In fact, we are completely dependent on the rest of the world to maintain our standard of living.
Already China and Japan are investing in Euros where they can get much higher returns on their money. As this trend continues our dollar will grow weaker and recession will occur. If the Euro becomes the currency of trade for oil, which many predict will happen since we have alienated so much of the world, we are going to be up to our necks in deep doo doo.
Posted by: Riff | February 21, 2005 at 09:50 AM
MORE:
The EU is considering the creation of their own defense force. China and Russia, traditional enemies, have announced that they will conduct joint military exercises this year for the first time. The rest of the world doesn't need us to protect them. Soon they will not need us economically. Then what?
This is why Bush is dangerous for this country. He doesn't have a clue.
Posted by: Riff | February 21, 2005 at 10:00 AM
Here's a good article to add to Riff's comments:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041227&s=schapiro
It's called "New power for Old Europe." All I can say is we better get our act together. Dean gets this.
CMAR-
I was in Europe for 2 years in the 80s. The way they felt about us then was much different than now. They didn't like Reagan, but they still loved America. I found it to be a love/hate relationship. They all wanted to come here... there was a secret admiration they had for our nation. I didn't feel as if I had to hide my Americaness. They hated Reagan. They loathe Bush. There's a difference. They don't hold that secret admiration anymore. I'll be going there again for a month and will hide my Americaness. Everyone I know who goes there, hides it. That's sad. So don't think it's the same as it was in the past.
Posted by: Sid | February 21, 2005 at 01:35 PM